Acid Queens and Brains on Fire: A Conversation with author Susannah Cahalan

Transcript

• 00:00In medicine.
• 00:01My name is Anna Reisman.
• 00:03I'm the director of the
• 00:03program,
• 00:04and I'm thrilled
• 00:06that so many people are
• 00:07here. This is great.
• 00:09So I wanna welcome you
• 00:11to the doctor Dillard Morris
• 00:13Dillard lecture.
• 00:14Doctor Dillard was part of
• 00:16the general internal medicine faculty,
• 00:18and he created the Wednesday
• 00:19evening clinic.
• 00:21And,
• 00:24I've invited Kathleen White, who
• 00:25was also the director of
• 00:26the Wednesday evening clinic,
• 00:28for quite a few years
• 00:29to say a couple of
• 00:30words about doctor Dillard, and
• 00:32then I'll introduce our speakers.
• 00:38Hi. I'm wondering if any
• 00:40of you are MD PhD
• 00:41students.
• 00:42So then you have doctor
• 00:44Dillard to thank for the
• 00:45Wednesday evening clinic, which are
• 00:47you familiar with it?
• 00:49You're in it. Okay. Wonderful.
• 00:51Okay.
• 00:52So,
• 00:53I was a,
• 00:54I was in the I
• 00:56was working in the primary
• 00:57care center where it no
• 00:59longer is,
• 01:00on Wednesday evenings when I
• 01:01was a resident.
• 01:03And
• 01:04medical students used to come
• 01:05in with food.
• 01:07And then this very nice
• 01:08gentleman with white hair came
• 01:10in, and I got to
• 01:11know them. And I,
• 01:13I was finishing my residency,
• 01:15and doctor Dillard was
• 01:17retiring, and I asked if
• 01:19I could take over the
• 01:20one saving clinic. So I
• 01:21did for the next seventeen
• 01:22years, and we became really
• 01:23great friends.
• 01:25Doctor Dillard,
• 01:26graduated with MD PhD from
• 01:28Emory
• 01:29and, was recruited to the
• 01:30primary care,
• 01:32program here at yale, which
• 01:34was internal medicine at the
• 01:35time, not primary care. But,
• 01:37he did research in endocrinology
• 01:40and
• 01:41was very
• 01:43close to and great educator
• 01:45for medical students. So one
• 01:47time, they
• 01:49the medical students who were
• 01:50leaving the the clinic or
• 01:52leaving medicine to go in
• 01:53the lab for as many
• 01:54years as you are,
• 01:56asked if there was some
• 01:57way that they could keep
• 01:58involved in patient care.
• 02:00So the medical students and
• 02:01doctor Dillard went to see
• 02:03doctor Gifford, who was the
• 02:05dean at the time, and
• 02:06set up the Wednesday evening
• 02:07clinic.
• 02:09So he,
• 02:11it and he also
• 02:13wanted us always to do
• 02:14research. So we even did
• 02:16a little study once on
• 02:17the
• 02:18on whether we could encourage
• 02:20women of childbearing years to
• 02:22take folic
• 02:23acid. This was way back
• 02:24when we weren't so sure
• 02:26that it was important nor
• 02:27nor were we sure that
• 02:29we had enough.
• 02:32Was it was it worthwhile
• 02:33for medical students to do
• 02:34that? So that was just
• 02:36one little study that we
• 02:37did.
• 02:40Then,
• 02:42I want what I wanted
• 02:43to say was that doctor
• 02:44Dillard did retire, and I
• 02:46did take over the directorship
• 02:48for seventeen years, but he
• 02:49came every single Wednesday.
• 02:52Sometimes he cooked.
• 02:53Every Christmas, he had a
• 02:56Christmas party for all the
• 02:57medical students at his beautiful
• 02:59colonial home
• 03:00furnished with wonderful
• 03:02period antiques.
• 03:04And,
• 03:05his life was really very
• 03:07devoted to students teaching in
• 03:09the Winston A. M. D.
• 03:10Clinic.
• 03:11And one more thing to
• 03:12tell you is that he
• 03:12was on the admissions committee
• 03:14and interviewed my son who
• 03:16then got into the medical
• 03:17school. So I'm also grateful
• 03:19to him for that.
• 03:20So, anyway, that just we're
• 03:22also in two thousand, we
• 03:24decided that
• 03:25he had done so much
• 03:27for the medical school for
• 03:28the for the students, for
• 03:29the admissions committee, but mostly
• 03:31for the Wednesday evening clinic
• 03:32that
• 03:33the students who were in
• 03:35the clinic at the time
• 03:36and I and,
• 03:39we we wrote letters to
• 03:40all the people who'd ever
• 03:41been in the Wednesday evening
• 03:42clinic, and we we raised
• 03:44enough money to pay for
• 03:45this lectureship,
• 03:46which is to honor him
• 03:47today. So thank you for
• 03:48being here.
• 03:53Thank you, Kathleen.
• 03:55Okay. I will very briefly
• 03:57introduce Susanna and Randy and
• 03:59then turn it over. So
• 04:00Susanna Cahalan is the best
• 04:01selling author of Brain on
• 04:02Fire, which has sold over
• 04:04a million copies
• 04:05and and been translated into
• 04:06more than twenty languages
• 04:08in which she chronicled her
• 04:09own struggles with being misdiagnosed
• 04:11to the serious mental illness
• 04:12that turned out to be
• 04:13an autoimmune disease.
• 04:15That book inspired a Netflix
• 04:17drama twenty sixteen,
• 04:18by the same name, and
• 04:20her experience contending with the
• 04:21mental health system has led
• 04:23her to become a leading
• 04:24voice on the treatment of
• 04:25mental illness in the United
• 04:26States.
• 04:28The second book I don't
• 04:29wanna take away from what
• 04:30you're gonna say, but
• 04:32her second book, okay, The
• 04:33Great Pretender was shortlisted for
• 04:35the Royal Society's twenty twenty
• 04:36Science Book Prize.
• 04:38It investigates the influential pseudo
• 04:40patient experiment conducted by David
• 04:42Rosenhan in the nineteen seventies
• 04:44and its place in the
• 04:44modern history of psychiatry.
• 04:47And her third book, The
• 04:48Acid Queen,
• 04:49will be described in great
• 04:51detail momentarily.
• 04:53Cahalan has also written for
• 04:54The New York Times, The
• 04:55New York Post,
• 04:56l, The New Scientist,
• 04:58and academic journals, including The
• 05:00Lancet and Biologic Psychiatry.
• 05:03So welcome. Welcome back.
• 05:06And Randi Hutter Epstein is
• 05:08the program for humanities and
• 05:09medicines writer in residence, and
• 05:11she is also leading
• 05:14the track in writing for
• 05:15the public in the new
• 05:17medical humanities concentration.
• 05:19And
• 05:21she is a
• 05:22beloved interviewer
• 05:24of of writer guests.
• 05:26So thank you both.
• 05:33Oh, and if you want
• 05:34this texting code,
• 05:36I'm about to get rid
• 05:37of it. So
• 05:39And I'll just add one
• 05:41more thing to doctor Dillard.
• 05:43He was such a kind
• 05:44person, so it's wonderful that
• 05:45you're here as such a
• 05:47kind person and so is
• 05:48he.
• 05:48And,
• 05:50maybe I shouldn't
• 05:51say this, but in this
• 05:53audience.
• 05:54But when I got my
• 05:55Yale interview,
• 05:57I said to all my
• 05:58friends,
• 05:59I'm not gonna go there.
• 06:00The people are so stuffy.
• 06:02It's a lead. I just
• 06:03had these for whatever reason,
• 06:06one can have, who would
• 06:07have thought?
• 06:08And doctor Dillard was the
• 06:09person that interviewed me.
• 06:12And I just thought I
• 06:13don't know. I just thought
• 06:14a Yale Medical School interview
• 06:16would be, like, this
• 06:18really
• 06:19condescending
• 06:20I don't know what I
• 06:21was thinking.
• 06:22And then I get this
• 06:23lovely
• 06:24person.
• 06:25He's was so warm and
• 06:28kind. I left the interview
• 06:29going, this is the only
• 06:30place where this is the
• 06:31only place I wanna go
• 06:32to medical school. He was
• 06:33just a warm, wonderful person,
• 06:36and I wish I could
• 06:36imitate the southern accent just
• 06:39really do it. But so
• 06:41it's wonderful that you and
• 06:42all your research and your
• 06:44kindness, he'd be thrilled to
• 06:46do that. That's
• 06:47fun. So I was just
• 06:49gonna add a few little
• 06:50tidbits to your bio. If
• 06:52you haven't read her first
• 06:52book, Anna just explained what
• 06:54Rain on Fire was.
• 06:56And I also think one
• 06:57of the takeaways of that
• 06:58book, if you haven't read
• 06:59it, read
• 07:00it.
• 07:01Is it Oh, no. Is
• 07:02this the lights aren't oh,
• 07:04there. No.
• 07:06Is there Yep. Oh, it
• 07:08keeps going off. When you
• 07:09speak.
• 07:10Oh, thank you. Okay. Mhmm.
• 07:12It doesn't sound a little
• 07:13it's on mute, but it's.
• 07:15Yeah. It could be. Yeah.
• 07:16It's, like, on and off.
• 07:23Oh, here now it's
• 07:26okay. This seems a bit
• 07:27better.
• 07:29Oh, hold on. I think
• 07:30Thanks. Hello.
• 07:34Your whole experience, in addition
• 07:36to
• 07:37autoimmune
• 07:38and everything else you went
• 07:39through, also shows that
• 07:42your boyfriend, now husband, and
• 07:43your parents,
• 07:46doctors are important, but those
• 07:47advocates in the hospital are
• 07:49really important too. You had
• 07:51that. And then Then I
• 07:53had my own doctor Dillard.
• 07:54Yes. Basically, essentially. Yeah. And
• 07:56so you and you had
• 07:57a doctor who really listened
• 07:59to you.
• 08:02Exactly.
• 08:04To get
• 08:06Oh, it's not.
• 08:10Well, I'm gonna hand you
• 08:12this mic right now.
• 08:15You must.
• 08:19One of the things I'm
• 08:20just gonna tell you the
• 08:21punchline of this whole interview
• 08:25is that
• 08:26you do incredible
• 08:28amounts of research.
• 08:30And if you haven't read
• 08:31the book yet, just notice
• 08:32it when you're reading it.
• 08:34Every detail was well researched,
• 08:35and you're also such a
• 08:37beautiful writer. So
• 08:39I already told you this.
• 08:40I want you to read
• 08:41just so for those who
• 08:42haven't read the book and
• 08:43even if you had,
• 08:44just maybe I'm just this
• 08:46is just from the middle.
• 08:49Should I just I'd like
• 08:50to see. Should I do
• 08:51I'll I'll I can give
• 08:52some context here. Right?
• 08:55Well So I've never read
• 08:56this part. This is fun
• 08:57to read aloud. I'm excited.
• 08:58This is written so beautiful.
• 08:59Thank you. Okay. I'm I'm
• 09:01gonna give some context.
• 09:02So this book is about
• 09:03a woman named Rosemary Woodruff
• 09:05Leary
• 09:06who, we'll get into it
• 09:07in more detail, but she
• 09:08was born in nineteen thirty
• 09:09five. She was born in
• 09:10St. Louis.
• 09:12She dropped out of high
• 09:13school, got married very young.
• 09:14It was an abusive relationship.
• 09:16She,
• 09:17left her husband at age
• 09:18seventeen and went to New
• 09:19York and became a model
• 09:21and did various odd jobs.
• 09:23Married
• 09:24again to a jazz accordionist,
• 09:26which, like, is a thing.
• 09:27I I who knew?
• 09:29And she
• 09:30got in with a crowd
• 09:31of beatniks
• 09:33and jazz musicians,
• 09:35part of the beat generation
• 09:37prior to the hippies.
• 09:38And,
• 09:40she was rubbing shoulders with,
• 09:41like, the Jack Kerouacs of
• 09:43the world, literally Jack Kerouac,
• 09:45and,
• 09:46you know, with Miles Davis
• 09:47and very interesting lifestyle, but
• 09:49that too, she had married
• 09:51a man who was probably
• 09:52not worthy of her in
• 09:53many ways and divorced again,
• 09:56and finds her way into
• 09:59a man named Timothy Leary's
• 10:00life. Now I have to
• 10:01ask because of the age
• 10:03here.
• 10:04And I and when I
• 10:05did my talks in Cape
• 10:06Cod where people were above
• 10:07a certain age, I did
• 10:08not have to ask this
• 10:09question. And when I did,
• 10:10people looked at me, like,
• 10:11I was, you know, had
• 10:12two heads, but who here
• 10:13knows who Timothy Leary is?
• 10:16Right. It's what I suspected.
• 10:18Yeah.
• 10:18So Timothy Leary was,
• 10:20he's best known as a
• 10:22Harvard professor.
• 10:23He before that, he was
• 10:24a psychologist at Kaiser in
• 10:26California.
• 10:27And before being involved in
• 10:29psychedelics at all, he was
• 10:31doing research kind of on
• 10:33person interpersonal
• 10:35personality
• 10:37relationships.
• 10:38He did something called the
• 10:39Leary Circle which apparently is
• 10:41still used which is used
• 10:42by kind of people who
• 10:43are in positions of employing
• 10:45people to see if like
• 10:46how you behave in certain
• 10:48dyads and certain
• 10:50relationships.
• 10:52And that's where he started.
• 10:53And then he went to
• 10:54had a kind of profound
• 10:56experience with mushrooms and ended
• 10:58up studying psychedelics at Harvard,
• 11:00lost his job for various
• 11:02reasons, including the subject of
• 11:04which he was studying,
• 11:05and left that and opened
• 11:07up something called,
• 11:09the Hitchcock Estate in Millbrook,
• 11:11New York. And that's where
• 11:12Rosemary and Timothy
• 11:13start to really have a
• 11:14love affair, and this is
• 11:16where this is, at the
• 11:18Millbrook estate. In the Millbrook
• 11:19estate, just for some context,
• 11:21Millbrook I don't know if
• 11:22anyone's familiar with Millbrook, New
• 11:23York, but it's a very
• 11:26kind of quiet,
• 11:28stately,
• 11:29fancy
• 11:30suburb,
• 11:31in upstate New York
• 11:33where lots of old money
• 11:35and lots of estates.
• 11:37And,
• 11:39Leary managed
• 11:40through a woman named Peggy
• 11:41Hitchcock, who I could go
• 11:42into, but very fascinating woman
• 11:43who was
• 11:44her family was had money
• 11:46from various means, but oil
• 11:47money mostly.
• 11:49She convinced her brothers who
• 11:51owned this this cattle farm
• 11:53estate called the Hitchcock Estate
• 11:54in Millbrook to rent it
• 11:56to Timothy Leary and his
• 11:58ex Harvard compatriots
• 12:00for a dollar a year.
• 12:02And they lived some in
• 12:04some place called the big
• 12:05house, and this is where
• 12:06I'm going to describe what
• 12:07was going on at the
• 12:08big house.
• 12:10I don't know. I'm aware
• 12:11of that. No.
• 12:14In the kitchen, the heart
• 12:15of the big house, strangers
• 12:16searched the cupboards or boiled
• 12:18water, or for those not
• 12:19following the diet, which was
• 12:20mostly vegan at the time,
• 12:22fried up bacon at all
• 12:23hours.
• 12:24Children jumped on the trampoline
• 12:25set up outside on the
• 12:26porch.
• 12:27Women, most a generation younger
• 12:29than Rosemary,
• 12:30sauntered by in bikinis or
• 12:31with their tops off, perky
• 12:33breasts bouncing as they headed
• 12:34to the waterfall.
• 12:35Most hailed from the white
• 12:37upper class,
• 12:38upper middle class. Children given
• 12:40enough rope to feel comfortable
• 12:42throwing all the way the
• 12:43bourgeois trappings that their parents
• 12:44had worked so hard to
• 12:46attain.
• 12:47As always, Timothy danced in
• 12:48the eye of the hurricane,
• 12:50holding court with his shirt
• 12:51off on the porch in
• 12:52between puffs of his cigarettes.
• 12:54Though he publicly called himself
• 12:56priest and prophet, he warned
• 12:58others about falling for power
• 12:59trips and gurus.
• 13:01Yet when he told his
• 13:02acolytes to remove all the
• 13:03pavement on the property,
• 13:05they jumped up to break
• 13:06up the gravel.
• 13:08When he asked them to
• 13:09gather all the metal in
• 13:10the house and bury it,
• 13:11they acted without question.
• 13:14Still, it was quote, truly
• 13:15beautiful, truly communal. Communal, said
• 13:18the light show artist Rudy
• 13:20Stern, also in residence, who
• 13:21helped design the psychedelic theater
• 13:23shows.
• 13:24Charlie Mingus playing piano in
• 13:26the living room, Marsh McLuhan
• 13:27would be there for breakfast,
• 13:29the Beatles were on the
• 13:29telephone, end quote.
• 13:31Tripping together intensified,
• 13:33even synchronized, their visions.
• 13:35Groups reported receiving collective prophecies,
• 13:38as the Aztecs once did.
• 13:40Someone would ask a question
• 13:41in their mind and the
• 13:42person next to them would
• 13:43receive the answer.
• 13:45There was a shared dedication
• 13:46to cognitive openness,
• 13:48magic, and cohesion.
• 13:50It felt at times like
• 13:51being stranded together on the
• 13:53most exciting desert island with
• 13:55more than enough food in
• 13:56all of your favorite records.
• 13:58The world clamored for more
• 14:00Timothy Leary. He was in
• 14:01high demand as a lecturer,
• 14:03provocateur,
• 14:04a fairly respectable guest on
• 14:06talk shows to explain behaviors
• 14:07of the youth generation,
• 14:09a reliable source for a
• 14:11perfect sound bite. He embodied
• 14:13the many flavors of the
• 14:14new counterculture,
• 14:15the youthful but not young
• 14:17rebel generation older than the
• 14:19baby boomers,
• 14:20eccentric professor, jailed prophet, and
• 14:22psychedelic superstar.
• 14:24But fame doesn't equal money.
• 14:26Millbrook required funds.
• 14:29As popular as the celebrations
• 14:30were, these were, theater shows.
• 14:33Accounts still bled red. Someone
• 14:35needed to pay for the
• 14:36unending rolls of toilet paper,
• 14:38heat, food, electricity, and even
• 14:41medical bills. Luckily, there was
• 14:43money in academia.
• 14:44Timothy charged at least a
• 14:46thousand per one hour college
• 14:47lecture, almost ten thousand dollars
• 14:49today,
• 14:50and performed his celebrations traveling
• 14:52with rosemary and a half
• 14:53a ton of equipment.
• 14:55In nineteen sixty seven, the
• 14:56year Timothy entertained
• 14:58vast swaths of college students
• 14:59around the country,
• 15:01more than eighty five percent
• 15:02of freshmen had listed
• 15:03developing a meaningful philosophy of
• 15:05life as a, quote, very
• 15:07important or essential personal life
• 15:09goal.
• 15:11I also think at one
• 15:12point, I thought it was
• 15:13in there when you called
• 15:14him a spiritual narcissist,
• 15:16which I loved.
• 15:18And I know the book
• 15:18is about Rosemary, but I
• 15:20wanted you to read that
• 15:21section because I think it's
• 15:23emblematic of the way you
• 15:25write, which I think is
• 15:26a tricky thing to do.
• 15:27You've immersed yourself with Rosemary
• 15:30Woodruff Leary,
• 15:33And yet, you're very clear
• 15:34eyed the whole time.
• 15:36And it's not this, Oh,
• 15:38they're wonderful. Like, it's How
• 15:40did you not just, like
• 15:42You do sympathize with her,
• 15:44-but you also stand back,
• 15:45and we see a lot
• 15:46of dumb mistakes she made,
• 15:48and a lot of bad
• 15:49stuff. And and even when
• 15:50it comes to psychedelics,
• 15:52you're not
• 15:53Most of the books out
• 15:55are They're either the greatest
• 15:57thing in the world, and
• 15:58we're repeating history because they
• 16:00don't the people that are
• 16:00saying this haven't read the
• 16:01whole history, but they're like,
• 16:03Woah, whoever knew that you
• 16:05could get to this other
• 16:06spiritual level and everyone should
• 16:07do it? Or they're anti
• 16:09psychedelics and somehow
• 16:11you maintain this balance. So
• 16:12That is so Thank you.
• 16:15It was really important to
• 16:16me. How did
• 16:18you sort of Okay. Keep
• 16:19your distance, but yet There
• 16:21were practical ways. Mhmm. First
• 16:23of all, was I did
• 16:24not take psychedelics when I
• 16:25was used doing, you know,
• 16:27writing this book, which was
• 16:28a decision. Because during the
• 16:30course of writing this book,
• 16:31lots of people tried to
• 16:32get me to do it.
• 16:33I was interviewing a lot
• 16:34of people who were still
• 16:35deeply into that hippie ethos,
• 16:39and actually one time interviewed
• 16:41a a man who is
• 16:42a facilitator
• 16:43now as as I'm I'm
• 16:44not sure how familiar people
• 16:45are, but and he said,
• 16:47you should come to
• 16:49he said this.
• 16:50You should come to see
• 16:51me in Vermont,
• 16:53and we can I can
• 16:54be your facilitator,
• 16:55quote,
• 16:56it's when you basically trip
• 16:58guide, your guide during a
• 17:00trip? And he said,
• 17:02no sexual stuff.
• 17:05I was like, if we
• 17:06have to say that, there's
• 17:08a real a real problem
• 17:10here in this. So I
• 17:11I anyway, so, like, not
• 17:12doing the drugs that I
• 17:13wrote about probably was part
• 17:15of it, but then also
• 17:16being sympathetic and very interested
• 17:18in the drugs themselves, taking
• 17:20them very seriously.
• 17:22You know, taking the experience
• 17:23of people I was writing
• 17:25about seriously, taking my own
• 17:26experience prior
• 17:27to my, you know, experience
• 17:29with autoimmune encephalitis, that I've
• 17:31had psychedelic experiences that were
• 17:33profound,
• 17:34incorporating that. And so it
• 17:35was seeing that these kind
• 17:37of, both of these ideas
• 17:38can exist at once. And
• 17:40and trying to keep that
• 17:41balance for me was the
• 17:42real challenge of the book.
• 17:44And it was it was
• 17:45a challenge with Rosemary too
• 17:46because like you said, she
• 17:47made some mistakes
• 17:49and some decisions that were
• 17:50not mistakes that were real.
• 17:51Like, she was very steadfast
• 17:53that I thought were ridiculous.
• 17:55And she behaved in ways
• 17:56that were some of it
• 17:57was a part of her
• 17:58the context of her time.
• 18:00And some of it was
• 18:01just plain, just bad, bad
• 18:04decisions. And to still kind
• 18:05of be with her and
• 18:07allow her to do that
• 18:08on the page
• 18:09without
• 18:11condemning her
• 18:13was something that was important
• 18:14to me. So thank you
• 18:15for saying that. And
• 18:17so if someone did wanna
• 18:20say, well,
• 18:21what did you think I
• 18:22mean, you you embody her.
• 18:23You feel like you really
• 18:24know her, and you quote
• 18:26her family as saying
• 18:28she was a lost soul.
• 18:30Do you think she was?
• 18:32Oh, that's a good question.
• 18:33So Rosemary
• 18:34was a
• 18:35searcher and a seeker,
• 18:37and she was someone looking
• 18:39for meaning in her life.
• 18:41And,
• 18:43I think that she thought
• 18:44maybe she'd find that meaning
• 18:45in having a family,
• 18:47but she couldn't have children.
• 18:49And so the loss of
• 18:50that was
• 18:51something there she had to
• 18:52reassess what that meaning was,
• 18:54but even before that, even
• 18:55before when she didn't
• 18:57have that realization,
• 18:59she was always looking for
• 19:01some
• 19:02something
• 19:03outside
• 19:04of the material plane, something
• 19:06that we couldn't see, feel,
• 19:07or touch. You could call
• 19:09it, like, almost like a
• 19:10religious
• 19:11yearning, though sh that wasn't
• 19:13what she was looking for
• 19:14specifically.
• 19:15And she and she really
• 19:16she herself credits it with
• 19:17the experience she had when
• 19:18she was seven years
• 19:20old, and she was in
• 19:21St. Louis, and she was
• 19:22walking in her neighborhood,
• 19:24and she was hit with
• 19:25this sudden
• 19:26feeling
• 19:27that everything was connected.
• 19:29She felt like she had
• 19:30been plugged into an electrical
• 19:32grid, that the whole world
• 19:34kind of vibrated
• 19:35in front of her. And,
• 19:37you know, it's a spontaneous,
• 19:38mystical experience. And a lot
• 19:40of people
• 19:41who become religious figures or
• 19:43become shamans
• 19:45report having that experience. And
• 19:46I think a lot of
• 19:47peep people as children have
• 19:49those experiences in general. We
• 19:51forget them perhaps,
• 19:53maybe we can explain them
• 19:54away, but I can remember
• 19:56moments in my life where
• 19:57I'm filled with some kind
• 19:59of otherness that is,
• 20:01that feels
• 20:03like profound. And for lack
• 20:05of you know, you can't
• 20:05describe it. You try to
• 20:06describe it, you fail. And
• 20:08the children I think are
• 20:09open to that. And she
• 20:10had that. And that that
• 20:11experience
• 20:12never left her.
• 20:13And I think did
• 20:15kind of shift the whole
• 20:16course of her life.
• 20:18So, yeah, she was seeking
• 20:19that. Yes. And And was
• 20:20a little lost because of
• 20:21it. So it's interesting. So
• 20:22in some ways,
• 20:23it seems like you admire
• 20:25that part of her. And
• 20:26then, yet she made some
• 20:28bad mistakes along the way.
• 20:30Absolutely. And I know people
• 20:31are gonna have questions about
• 20:33the content, but also the
• 20:34writing process. But I'm gonna
• 20:35ask you also about the
• 20:36writing process speaking of Rosemary,
• 20:38because
• 20:40in some ways,
• 20:41if you didn't like, you
• 20:43tie things together in this
• 20:44wonderful narrative arc, but her
• 20:45life is kind of all
• 20:47over the place, sort of.
• 20:48-MUSIC -MUSIC: Yes. -MUSIC:
• 20:50and I'm gonna ask a
• 20:51very specific
• 20:52question, because right in the
• 20:53beginning of the book, you
• 20:54give this lovely anecdote. And
• 20:56for those who haven't read
• 20:57it yet,
• 20:58and you sort of tie,
• 20:59like, this is what her
• 21:01family life was like in
• 21:03Saint Louis, and this
• 21:05is what she's going to
• 21:06be, this myth maker. And
• 21:08so can you just
• 21:09tell us the it's not
• 21:10a spoiler alert. It's on
• 21:11page one. Yeah.
• 21:13But
• 21:15what was your thought process
• 21:16in terms of starting the
• 21:18book? Like, did you hear
• 21:19about that? Tell us about
• 21:20it. And then I want
• 21:20to be like, oh, that's
• 21:21gonna be the start of
• 21:22my book. Or did you
• 21:23think, okay, the essence of
• 21:25her is she's a myth
• 21:26maker about herself, and I
• 21:27need an anecdote
• 21:29to start with. Oh, that's
• 21:30great. I so the the
• 21:31the anecdote the anecdote in
• 21:33question. So her father,
• 21:35Rosemary's father, worked, on the
• 21:37railroad and the levees.
• 21:39And,
• 21:41Rose and but on the
• 21:42on the side, he was
• 21:43an amateur magician.
• 21:45And, in fact, she wrote,
• 21:46a memoir that she was
• 21:47working on in progress called
• 21:48The Magician's Daughter. So clearly
• 21:50very important to her that
• 21:51her father was a magician.
• 21:53And Timothy Leary, in many
• 21:54ways, was a magician as
• 21:55well.
• 21:56So,
• 21:57magician's daughter. So she would
• 21:59oftentimes
• 22:00accompany her her father,
• 22:03almost said husband,
• 22:05father to bars and where
• 22:07he would do his tricks
• 22:09with, you know, what kind
• 22:10of like,
• 22:11kind of close hand magic
• 22:12with cards
• 22:13and she would tap dance
• 22:15on the bar
• 22:17kicking away the suds and
• 22:18a beautiful I mean, she
• 22:19was a beautiful woman but
• 22:20as a child she looked
• 22:21like a kind of brown
• 22:22haired Shirley Temple
• 22:25And the men were looking
• 22:26at her then when she
• 22:27was a child, and she
• 22:28had command over a room
• 22:30based on the way she
• 22:31looked just in just at
• 22:33that, you know, when she
• 22:34was five years old.
• 22:36So to me, that is
• 22:38amazing. And then the reason
• 22:39why I started there,
• 22:41and this is kind of
• 22:42a spoiler alert, but it's
• 22:43I it's not because it's
• 22:45not.
• 22:46But,
• 22:47she writes about her father
• 22:49in her unpublished book, which
• 22:51I use, which was a
• 22:52key text, kind of, Rosetta
• 22:54Stone, if you will, for
• 22:56me with the book. But
• 22:57there was a lot that
• 22:58I had to triple source
• 23:00and question because she was
• 23:01a self mythologizer,
• 23:03as well as a mythologizer
• 23:04of Timothy Leary.
• 23:06And there was a wonderful
• 23:08scene that she describes of
• 23:09her father in a top
• 23:10hat and tails doing his
• 23:12magic.
• 23:13And, I had I found
• 23:15the picture, and it was
• 23:16amazing that he was in
• 23:17a top hat and tail,
• 23:18and there was, like, a
• 23:19gun that he was pointing
• 23:20at some target.
• 23:22And
• 23:23I,
• 23:24found a letter from nineteen
• 23:26seventy one. This was long
• 23:28before she had finished the
• 23:29book, but when she was
• 23:30starting the book, and she
• 23:31started the book with with
• 23:32the anecdote of her father
• 23:33and the top hat and
• 23:34tails doing magic. And she
• 23:35sent it to her mother,
• 23:37And her mother
• 23:39read it and said, oh,
• 23:39it's beautifully written, but you've
• 23:41gotten a key part of
• 23:42it wrong.
• 23:43Your father
• 23:45wasn't the magician,
• 23:47he was the magician's assistant.
• 23:50And that, to me, she
• 23:51never changed it. She kept
• 23:52that he was a magician
• 23:53in her book, and I
• 23:54thought,
• 23:56that's amazing. And what I
• 23:58think in many ways Rosemary
• 23:59was the magician
• 24:01too, but also
• 24:02she presented as the magician's
• 24:04assistant. She was kind of
• 24:05both.
• 24:06And isn't that the most
• 24:07magical, the kind of person
• 24:08who can make you think
• 24:10that they're behind the scenes,
• 24:11that they're the only doing
• 24:12the things helping the magician,
• 24:14but really they're the ones,
• 24:15They're the thing they're behind
• 24:17the scenes. They're turning the
• 24:18pages. They're doing the magic
• 24:20that you can't see. That
• 24:21to me is magical.
• 24:22So that's why I started
• 24:24there because I thought when
• 24:25I found that note, it
• 24:26was just
• 24:27amazing. And also,
• 24:29I love when things are
• 24:30a little
• 24:31that I I I love
• 24:33the idea of
• 24:35of people's narratives and how
• 24:36we rewrite the past and
• 24:37what we choose to remember
• 24:39and what we don't and
• 24:40how Rosemary in many ways
• 24:42was chosen. The the society,
• 24:44the culture chose not to
• 24:45remember her and I'm there's
• 24:47something just very interesting there,
• 24:48so that's why I started
• 24:49there.
• 24:50That's what I was gonna
• 24:51ask about next two things.
• 24:54You love to write about
• 24:56people that society chooses not
• 24:58to remember.
• 24:59There we go. And so
• 25:01Yes. Is it because she's
• 25:03a woman? Is it because
• 25:04you feel that there are
• 25:05things that I think you
• 25:06called it a footnote in
• 25:08history
• 25:09that shouldn't be footnotes? Like,
• 25:11is there something that goes
• 25:12off in you going, this
• 25:13shouldn't be a a footnote
• 25:14in history. This should be
• 25:16a book. Yeah.
• 25:17So I wanna know about
• 25:18that process.
• 25:20And
• 25:21and then I'll slide into
• 25:23this question too, because I
• 25:24might forgot,
• 25:25that you just talked about
• 25:27being the assistant.
• 25:28How you think
• 25:30Timothy Leary
• 25:32might have things might have
• 25:33gone different for him if
• 25:34it weren't for her. Oh,
• 25:36okay. Okay.
• 25:37So I will So footnote.
• 25:38Okay. Footnote. So
• 25:40there's a kind of practical
• 25:42answer to the question where
• 25:44my, like,
• 25:45journalistic spidey senses go off
• 25:47when I see a story
• 25:48that doesn't have a Wikipedia
• 25:49she didn't have a Wikipedia.
• 25:50Now she does, I heard,
• 25:51which I'm so happy.
• 25:52But she didn't have a
• 25:53Wikipedia page, and no one
• 25:55knew her, and her story
• 25:57hadn't been told. And to
• 25:58me, that just, like, journalist
• 26:00that that kind of like
• 26:01I gotta get the story
• 26:02side of me which I've
• 26:03never fully let go of.
• 26:05That's something kind of
• 26:07oh this, you know, that's
• 26:08very exciting.
• 26:10But I think
• 26:11on a more
• 26:12a deeper level I think
• 26:15like in many you could
• 26:16make the argument that I
• 26:17could have been one of
• 26:18those people very easily
• 26:20because I was very close
• 26:22to a misdiagnosis
• 26:23that would have most likely
• 26:25siloed me in a way
• 26:26that I wouldn't have gotten
• 26:27a diagnosis I talk about
• 26:29autoimmune encephalitis. I was misdiagnosed
• 26:31with schizoaffective
• 26:32disorder.
• 26:34Very easily could have fallen
• 26:36through the cracks. There's a
• 26:37story of a woman the
• 26:39same time that I was
• 26:40sick just up the road
• 26:41from me at another institution,
• 26:42a very storied institution,
• 26:44that,
• 26:45was misdiagnosed for two years
• 26:47and cognitively impaired and would
• 26:49not be writing books. I
• 26:50you know, so
• 26:52I easily could have been
• 26:53that person. So I think
• 26:54there I think it has
• 26:56to I never really consciously
• 26:58think that, but I'm I
• 26:59think that that has to
• 27:01be
• 27:02part of it. And I
• 27:03really do think, like,
• 27:05everything that I'm right, everything
• 27:07that I do comes from
• 27:08Brain on Fire. Like, it
• 27:09comes from my experience.
• 27:12It all starts there. They're
• 27:13all relate they all kind
• 27:14of orbit that experience whether
• 27:16directly or indirectly.
• 27:17So then to answer your
• 27:19question about Leary,
• 27:21what would he have been
• 27:22without Rosemary?
• 27:24I think he would have,
• 27:27had less of effect an
• 27:28effect on the culture.
• 27:29She helped him figure out
• 27:31not only his image, she
• 27:32actually sewed his clothing. So
• 27:34at some point before
• 27:36he was when he was
• 27:37at Harvard,
• 27:38he was he wore the
• 27:39tweeds and the elbow patches,
• 27:40and he was very kind
• 27:41of professorial.
• 27:43And it was Rosemary who
• 27:45had him wearing the kind
• 27:46of flowing linens
• 27:48and the bare feet and
• 27:49the open you know, the
• 27:50no shirt or the open
• 27:51shirt, and she designed that
• 27:53for him.
• 27:54And then along with Marcia
• 27:55McCloughan who told him to
• 27:56smile all the time like
• 27:57he was selling Coca Cola
• 27:59that was Marcia McCloughan but
• 28:01but Rosemary helped I think
• 28:02that image was very important
• 28:04to getting the kind of
• 28:06youth generation behind him because
• 28:07he was
• 28:08considerably older than the baby
• 28:09boomers he was born in
• 28:11nineteen twenty
• 28:12so he was you know
• 28:14even at the start of
• 28:16the movement an older man
• 28:17in the movement and she
• 28:18was considerably she was fifteen
• 28:20years younger than him she
• 28:21also was not a baby
• 28:22boomer but represented this kind
• 28:23of feminine ideal,
• 28:26of that time
• 28:28and,
• 28:29together
• 28:30I think they were able
• 28:31to
• 28:32really get eyeballs and really
• 28:33shift the culture and in
• 28:35addition to
• 28:36helping design him, she also
• 28:38wrote some of his best
• 28:39work, some of his most
• 28:40cited
• 28:42books she edited. So
• 28:44I'm I think that maybe
• 28:45he would have been more
• 28:46of a footnote in history
• 28:47without her.
• 28:49So I'm gonna ask one
• 28:51more question, because I think
• 28:51there's gonna be a lot
• 28:52of questions in the audience.
• 28:54And then if there's not,
• 28:54I'm just gonna keep going.
• 28:56But my one more question
• 28:58is,
• 28:59you read this book. It's
• 29:00about Rosemary,
• 29:02but you get a really
• 29:03wonderful sense about the history
• 29:06of psychedelics.
• 29:07For those who think it
• 29:08was a nineteen sixties thing,
• 29:09you're wrong. Read the book
• 29:09to find out when it
• 29:10started.
• 29:12But you also
• 29:14weave in
• 29:15in ways that if we
• 29:16weren't good friends, I'd probably
• 29:17be really jealous.
• 29:19That you just weave in
• 29:20this history,
• 29:22without getting too pedantic and
• 29:24going on so long. And
• 29:26maybe
• 29:27for all the medical writers
• 29:29out here that wanna be
• 29:30great storytellers yet weave in
• 29:32information, whether it's history of
• 29:34medicine or the science.
• 29:37Like, you make these nods
• 29:38to things in the history
• 29:39of psychedelics without going on
• 29:41way too long. You even
• 29:42make a nod to in
• 29:43what you read, like, oh,
• 29:44and they, you know, they
• 29:45were on the phone with
• 29:46The Beatles. So then we're
• 29:47like, oh, right. They were
• 29:48that famous, Timothy Leary. Without
• 29:50going on and on to
• 29:51say they were this famous.
• 29:53So did this come through
• 29:55because it just flows or
• 29:56even drafts? No.
• 29:58I am,
• 29:59like a fifty draft writer.
• 30:02I mean, I have a
• 30:02I mean, I start with
• 30:03an outline that's probably twice
• 30:05as long as the book,
• 30:06and then the book is
• 30:08bloated about forty thousand words
• 30:10more than it eventually. And
• 30:11then cutting, cutting, cutting, cutting,
• 30:13getting great editorial eyes on
• 30:15it.
• 30:16Really being aware of what
• 30:17makes me bored. Like when
• 30:19I'm reading something and my
• 30:20eyes glaze over,
• 30:24I definitely mark that. And
• 30:25I try I fail a
• 30:27lot of times.
• 30:28Look at my good readers
• 30:29reviews on The Great Pretender
• 30:30in particular. But,
• 30:32I really fell in love
• 30:33with the research on that
• 30:33book. But,
• 30:35but I did and this
• 30:36one especially was very aware
• 30:39of trying not to bore
• 30:41myself. And if I'm boring
• 30:42myself and I love this,
• 30:43I'm definitely gonna bore the
• 30:44reader.
• 30:45And trying to just cut
• 30:46it down to the bone
• 30:47to get to the essence.
• 30:48And clearly, I didn't. It's
• 30:49still a long book. But,
• 30:51you know, there's like the
• 30:52Elmore Leonard kind of school
• 30:54of writing, which I'm behind,
• 30:56which is like to be
• 30:57as concise
• 30:58as possible to get to
• 30:59the truth. And
• 31:00I tried to do that.
• 31:02And, you know, the weaving
• 31:03in thank you for saying
• 31:04about that. I mean, that's
• 31:06my favorite thing to do
• 31:07is to try to find
• 31:07the right places to drop
• 31:09in just something that contextualizes,
• 31:11you know, you think about
• 31:12like a movie and they
• 31:13have, you know, this is
• 31:14kind of a cliche and
• 31:16it's overdone, but there's something
• 31:17on the TV. There's like,
• 31:18you know, the Challenger explosion
• 31:19on the TV and then
• 31:20you know where you are.
• 31:22Having those moments that there's
• 31:24a shorthand
• 31:25that brings
• 31:27the reader up to date
• 31:29gives some it's so this
• 31:31book is all about context
• 31:32because so much of the
• 31:33behavior just would not fly
• 31:34today, and it's just
• 31:36very much of its time.
• 31:37And I so I wanted
• 31:38to be mindful of the
• 31:39fact that I am writing
• 31:40about this history, and,
• 31:42it's important to have to
• 31:43provide that those those kind
• 31:44of context clues throughout.
• 31:48Okay. I'm gonna open this
• 31:49up to questions now to
• 31:51see.
• 31:53You can ask me anything.
• 31:54I'm Yeah.
• 31:56Oh, and just introduce yourself
• 31:58and what year you're in.
• 32:07Hello. My name is Mandy.
• 32:09I'm a fourth year medical
• 32:10student, but I do not
• 32:11go to Yale. I go
• 32:12to UC School of Medicine,
• 32:13and And I was actually
• 32:14very interested in your, presentation.
• 32:16So I wanna say thank
• 32:17you. Thank you for coming.
• 32:18I do have a question.
• 32:19This is more about a
• 32:20psychedelic question. And I know
• 32:22there's been studies about psychedelics
• 32:23being used for,
• 32:25psychiatry for,
• 32:27alcohol and addiction patients.
• 32:29But I kind of was
• 32:31curious your take on the
• 32:32use of psychedelics
• 32:34within
• 32:35the
• 32:36medical community.
• 32:38For example, in a psych
• 32:39team,
• 32:40you have your residents, your
• 32:42attendings, and your students as
• 32:44a way of connecting in
• 32:45in an empathetic way of
• 32:48finding a way to
• 32:50create a community in a
• 32:51different
• 32:53manner. So I'm curious what
• 32:54your take on that is.
• 32:56If
• 32:58do you mean? I don't
• 33:00Okay. I try.
• 33:03So
• 33:04I want
• 33:07So if I understand your
• 33:09question correctly, the question is
• 33:11the actual use of psychedelics
• 33:13Yes.
• 33:14Inflammation. Yes. Okay. That is
• 33:16something.
• 33:19I think there's something really
• 33:20interesting there. I think that,
• 33:24there is an empathy
• 33:26component
• 33:26that I've stuck it up.
• 33:28Oh. Anyway, can you hear
• 33:29me? That is okay. On
• 33:31the Zoom. It's very Oh.
• 33:32I should have come. Yeah.
• 33:33I should have come.
• 33:35Mom, this is the best
• 33:36answer, and you're missing it.
• 33:40I think that's really interesting.
• 33:41I I don't know any
• 33:42studies about this. I do
• 33:44know that there have been
• 33:45a bunch of studies about
• 33:46facilitators
• 33:47that we've talked about before
• 33:48using psychedelics.
• 33:50And actually, Rich Donald was
• 33:51kind of the face of
• 33:53psychedelic movement, of head of
• 33:54MAPS,
• 33:55has been very vocal about
• 33:57insisting that his facilitators take
• 33:59psychedelics themselves so they know
• 34:00what they're experiencing.
• 34:02You know, I'm
• 34:04always hesitant
• 34:06to attribute too much to
• 34:07the actual molecules themselves and
• 34:10more to the people who
• 34:11are using them.
• 34:12In some cases, I think
• 34:14that psychedelics can increase empathy
• 34:16for sure,
• 34:17but in some cases, it
• 34:18doesn't. And in the case
• 34:20of Timothy Leary and some
• 34:21of his brethren,
• 34:23it did not. I mean,
• 34:24ego inflation was a big
• 34:25thing.
• 34:26So I I do think
• 34:27you have to think about,
• 34:28like, the individual
• 34:29in the practice of using
• 34:30psychedelics, because the concept of
• 34:32set and setting, which Timothy
• 34:34Leary popularized and Rosemary embodied
• 34:37in the idea of set
• 34:38and setting is the idea
• 34:39of the mindset that you
• 34:40bring into a trip, but
• 34:41that can be your neurobiology
• 34:44too.
• 34:45And then the setting, which
• 34:46is the environment around which
• 34:47you're doing psychedelics.
• 34:49That set
• 34:50is so variable.
• 34:52So I think I'm always
• 34:53very,
• 34:55when something as diffuse as
• 34:56empathy building or like team
• 34:58building and cohesion, like I'm
• 35:00always a little suspect. But
• 35:02that said,
• 35:04I think that if you
• 35:05look at if you talk
• 35:06to people who do retreats,
• 35:07these are no. This is
• 35:08not, like, official. This would
• 35:09be underground psychedelic work that
• 35:11had been going on for
• 35:13decades.
• 35:14They would say you would
• 35:15definitely see team building and
• 35:17empathy, you know, an increase
• 35:19in empathy. You would have
• 35:20connection among the people because
• 35:22you're going through a challenging
• 35:24experience, because it's challenging even
• 35:26in the best sense,
• 35:28together. And typically, when you
• 35:29go through a challenging experience
• 35:31with other people I mean,
• 35:32go to summer camp for
• 35:33eight weeks. You become you
• 35:34grow into a group. So
• 35:35that kind of truncates a
• 35:37challenging experience into an eight
• 35:38hour session if you're doing
• 35:39LSD or a four hour
• 35:40session if you're doing psilocybin.
• 35:42So I think there's something
• 35:43to that. Interesting. I thought
• 35:45I I just think it's
• 35:46a fascinating question. Thank you
• 35:47for that. I I don't
• 35:47know if that made any
• 35:48sense, but I think it's
• 35:49that's a great question. Thank
• 35:50you.
• 35:56Hi. I'm Natalie. I'm an,
• 35:57addiction medicine fellow.
• 35:59I'm really curious to know,
• 36:01like, based on your discussions
• 36:02with, Rosemary,
• 36:04whether, like, looking back, she
• 36:06feels like her and Timothy
• 36:07Leary
• 36:08moved psychedelic research forward or
• 36:11if they if looking back,
• 36:12she feels like, actually,
• 36:14it might have had the
• 36:14opposite effect. Fantastic question. And,
• 36:17I never spoke to her.
• 36:19She died in two thousand
• 36:20two. Died very young. She
• 36:22she lived twenty five years
• 36:23on underground. She helped getting
• 36:25some stuff away from the
• 36:26book of still read it.
• 36:28She helped Timothy Leary escape
• 36:30prison
• 36:30and then lived for twenty
• 36:32five years underground in, South
• 36:34and Central America in Europe,
• 36:36South and Central America. And
• 36:37then in nineteen seventy six,
• 36:38came back to the country
• 36:39and lived under an assumed
• 36:41name in on Cape Cod.
• 36:43So,
• 36:44and running a a bed
• 36:45and breakfast, which is very
• 36:47kind of baby boomer end
• 36:48to her life. But
• 36:50but, anyway, she, I so
• 36:52I never got to ask
• 36:53her that question, but she
• 36:54did talk a lot about
• 36:56contributing
• 36:57to the myth of Timothy
• 36:58Leary. Timothy and Rosemary, she
• 37:00would sometimes say her Timothy
• 37:01Leary.
• 37:02And there are indications,
• 37:05especially during her time underground
• 37:07where she really regretted contributing
• 37:09to what would you know,
• 37:10and she was someone who
• 37:12never felt comfortable
• 37:13with the evangelical
• 37:15overly kind of democratized
• 37:17view of psychedelic use. She
• 37:19never felt comfortable with that.
• 37:21In fact, she described it
• 37:22as Frodo with the ring,
• 37:24and that was too much
• 37:25responsibility for her to turn
• 37:26on other people to to,
• 37:27you know, drop acid with
• 37:28other people for the first
• 37:29time. And she felt that
• 37:31that was a major decision
• 37:32and responsibility
• 37:33and that she did not
• 37:35feel comfortable pushing people towards
• 37:37that.
• 37:38Later in life, and then
• 37:39I'm getting this all through
• 37:40kind of secondhand sources,
• 37:42She did she when she
• 37:43came back above ground for
• 37:45a few years after Timothy
• 37:46Leary's death,
• 37:47she did go to a
• 37:48class
• 37:49at I think it was
• 37:50at UC Santa Cruz,
• 37:52and she spoke about her
• 37:54life
• 37:55and she talked her main
• 37:57points of this talk was
• 37:58to counsel the undergraduates
• 38:01to be very careful with
• 38:02psychedelics
• 38:03and that there's a shadow
• 38:04side and that there's there
• 38:06are risks involved and that
• 38:07you should not go in
• 38:08just kind of blithely.
• 38:10So I think that if
• 38:12I mean, I can tell
• 38:13you what I think because
• 38:14I can't read her mind.
• 38:16I think that Timothy Leary
• 38:17did set back,
• 38:19the research into psychedelics. I
• 38:21think that that that setback
• 38:23was happening before Leary. If
• 38:24you look at the history
• 38:25of kind of psychedelic science,
• 38:27which started in the nineteen
• 38:28fifties,
• 38:29you notice that towards the
• 38:31end of the nineteen fifties
• 38:32and into the early nineteen
• 38:33sixties, the researchers were using
• 38:35the drugs too much. They
• 38:36were using them with the
• 38:37patients.
• 38:38The studies were flawed. You
• 38:39had people in psychiatry, very
• 38:41kind of big names in
• 38:42psychiatry, starting to talk about
• 38:45this and to really start
• 38:46to react against some of
• 38:47these studies and calling them
• 38:49out for having some serious
• 38:51ethical
• 38:52problems, and also the data
• 38:54was flawed as well. So,
• 38:55I think that it maybe
• 38:57was a reckoning that was
• 38:58going to slowly happen, but
• 39:00not to the degree that
• 39:01it became a schedule one
• 39:02drug and then had no
• 39:04use whatsoever
• 39:05for any sort of research
• 39:07and all the research went
• 39:08underground. I mean, I think
• 39:09that that extreme reaction
• 39:11was a result of Timothy
• 39:12Leary going around saying turn
• 39:14on, tune in, drop out,
• 39:16and counseling and then really
• 39:17directing that to the kind
• 39:19of youth generation, which really
• 39:20scared a a generation of
• 39:21parents. So I I am
• 39:23lawmakers
• 39:24and Nixon. So anyway, so
• 39:26I yes. That's a long
• 39:27answer to your question. I'm
• 39:28sorry. Yeah.
• 39:34Hi. Thank you so much
• 39:35for your very thoughtful answers.
• 39:37I'm Carolyn Hirsch. I'm a
• 39:39second year master of public
• 39:40health student, and I studied
• 39:42anthropology undergrad.
• 39:44I'm very interested in how,
• 39:45you know, you use the
• 39:47archive and navigate
• 39:48that.
• 39:49Can you talk about an
• 39:51experience,
• 39:52like, and your integrity? So,
• 39:54like, you have to verify
• 39:55sources. Do you have
• 39:57anything that you, like, haven't
• 39:59been able to include to,
• 40:00like, to keep your integrity?
• 40:02Are you able to talk
• 40:03about that? Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
• 40:05So there's a whole part
• 40:06of Rosemary's life
• 40:08that was when she was
• 40:09underground where I have one
• 40:11source. I have what she
• 40:12wrote about it, and then
• 40:13I have a man
• 40:15this is what recorded.
• 40:17Funniest.
• 40:18Okay.
• 40:20A person a wonderful person
• 40:22who
• 40:23who actually was one source.
• 40:25So how do
• 40:27I you know
• 40:28I can't verify what he
• 40:29said and a lot of
• 40:30it's extreme and
• 40:32wild,
• 40:33but I with one source
• 40:34and none of Rosemary's like
• 40:35I could use Rosemary's writing
• 40:37corroborating
• 40:38what he said, but other
• 40:40things that were said I
• 40:41I and if you notice
• 40:42the way that I got
• 40:43around that in the book
• 40:45was that I wrote it
• 40:46all in in past tense
• 40:48where I was she was
• 40:49it was flashback.
• 40:50So she was already on
• 40:52Cape Cod
• 40:53living as Sarah Woodruff,
• 40:55and then I went back
• 40:57and told the story so
• 40:58I could tell it the
• 40:58way I wanted to tell
• 40:59it. Not the way, like,
• 41:00oh, then they went to
• 41:01this place and that place
• 41:01the way he would have
• 41:02told it. I told it
• 41:04the parts that I could
• 41:05confirm. And then I gestured
• 41:07to allegedly
• 41:08or at he you know,
• 41:09I could say John said
• 41:10etcetera.
• 41:11But, that's the way I
• 41:12handled
• 41:13it. And that's specific. But
• 41:14there were plenty of other
• 41:17case. You know, there was
• 41:18one that was like that's
• 41:19a more tangible thing, which
• 41:20was her first trip at
• 41:21Millbrook happens,
• 41:23and I could not read
• 41:24her handwriting except for, like,
• 41:25a little bit, which I
• 41:26had included in the book.
• 41:27And so I I got
• 41:28I tried to write a
• 41:29handwriting
• 41:30analyst and all that stuff.
• 41:32Actually, there was her handwriting
• 41:33was she was very high,
• 41:35so it made it worse.
• 41:37But, so I I couldn't
• 41:38use that, obviously, information. I
• 41:40mean, I don't know how
• 41:41I would have, but,
• 41:42but anyway, the I I'd
• 41:43say that just the most
• 41:44specific example of this happened
• 41:47in terms of our time
• 41:47underground that I couldn't corroborate.
• 41:50You take one question there,
• 41:51and then we'll jump over
• 41:52here. Yes.
• 41:54Hi.
• 41:55My name is Pasha. I'm
• 41:56an eighth year MD PhD
• 41:57student. I did my PhD.
• 41:58It's my last year, I
• 41:59swear.
• 42:02I did my PhD on
• 42:03psychedelics, so so it was
• 42:04really great to read your
• 42:05book. I was thinking about
• 42:06this. I also read Tripping
• 42:07on Utopia right before this,
• 42:08which was a lot about
• 42:09Margaret Mead. Right? Which is
• 42:10also so this kind of
• 42:11goes back to a conversation
• 42:12that was earlier where you're
• 42:13talking about, like, footnotes and
• 42:14people who are underappreciated because
• 42:16I totally agree with you.
• 42:17Like, Rick Doblin, Robin Carhart
• 42:18Harris, these evangelicals even now.
• 42:20Yes. When we go to
• 42:21conferences, they get a lot
• 42:22of space. So my question
• 42:23is, you know, as someone
• 42:24who's in both basic and
• 42:25clinical,
• 42:26are there people that like,
• 42:27journalists that you read now
• 42:29that you would recommend Yes.
• 42:30For us to, like, read
• 42:32about who you think are
• 42:32doing a good space and
• 42:33exposing these footnotes? Hundred percent
• 42:35there's a few. One is
• 42:37a woman named Shayla Love.
• 42:38Yes. I do like her.
• 42:39She She's great.
• 42:40She's a she's a friend
• 42:41now. I actually wrote a
• 42:43fan letter to her, and
• 42:44that's how we became,
• 42:46yeah. She's an incredible writer
• 42:48and she's she's kind of
• 42:49moved away from the from
• 42:50psychedelics, but she was the
• 42:50person when I was writing
• 42:51this book, I'm like, what
• 42:52does Shayna have to say
• 42:53about this? Because she's so
• 42:55even handed,
• 42:56so smart. So I think
• 42:57she's great. I also think
• 42:58Psychedelic Alpha, which is, do
• 43:00you know what do you
• 43:00know what do you know
• 43:00what do you know what
• 43:01do you know what do
• 43:01you know what do you
• 43:01know what do you know
• 43:01what do you know what
• 43:01do you're familiar with it?
• 43:02Like a newsletter. Right? The
• 43:02newsletter. I think
• 43:04great. And if you
• 43:06no. And then Jules Evans
• 43:07who tends to be on
• 43:08the harsher side of things,
• 43:09but he's fantastic as well.
• 43:11I can't remember the name
• 43:12of his.
• 43:14It's Jules Evans. And he
• 43:15does,
• 43:16he does a lot of
• 43:17research and challenging experiences and
• 43:19was one of the first
• 43:19and only doing that for
• 43:21a while. Now there's been
• 43:21a real sea change with
• 43:22that because the FDA, you
• 43:23know, every everything that happened
• 43:25with the FDA not moving
• 43:26forward with MDMA, which actually
• 43:27I think helps ultimately will
• 43:29help
• 43:30the industry really is what
• 43:31it is.
• 43:33Because it was getting too
• 43:34evangelical. I was just at
• 43:35the MAPS conference
• 43:37and it was a totally
• 43:38different vibe than it was
• 43:39prior to in twenty twenty
• 43:41three before the FDA the
• 43:43FDA decided not to move
• 43:44forward with MDMA
• 43:45and
• 43:46that really
• 43:47set back a lot of
• 43:48the mostly the kind of
• 43:50like big biotech
• 43:51funding that was going on
• 43:53and a lot of this
• 43:54real exuberance going on in
• 43:56the field and it kind
• 43:57of got rid of a
• 43:58lot of those people and
• 43:59so what you've you kind
• 44:01of saw a chastened group
• 44:02but they were like still
• 44:03steadfast
• 44:04and they were smarter with
• 44:05the way that they were
• 44:06talking about things. Some things
• 44:07not, which I could talk
• 44:08about.
• 44:09But overall, I think it
• 44:10was a good
• 44:11moment
• 44:12to kind of have a
• 44:13little bit of humility in
• 44:14that field because it's sometimes
• 44:16lacking as you mentioned. Yeah.
• 44:23Hi.
• 44:24I'm Howard Zonana. I'm a
• 44:26psychiatrist,
• 44:27and I just wanted to
• 44:28add a few things that
• 44:30we've been discussing this in
• 44:31our professional organizations
• 44:34because there's a resurgence
• 44:36of, obviously, of interest has
• 44:38been more research, although the
• 44:39research
• 44:40has been very problematic in
• 44:42the sense most studies
• 44:45most studies,
• 44:47don't take
• 44:49anyone with a psychotic history
• 44:51or family history, so you
• 44:53have to be care
• 44:54careful about that and what
• 44:55we know.
• 44:56In addition, some states have
• 44:58now decriminalized
• 44:59it,
• 45:00and so it leaves it
• 45:01a little wider open about
• 45:03what's gonna happen.
• 45:05What's the practice of it?
• 45:07People have to sit for
• 45:09five or six hours.
• 45:11Is that something you should
• 45:13charge for?
• 45:14Is are insurance gonna pay
• 45:16for that?
• 45:17And what do you do?
• 45:20What we do as psychiatrists
• 45:22are trained generally
• 45:25not to touch patients.
• 45:28And here, there's a lot
• 45:29of cuddling
• 45:30described
• 45:31and a lot of other
• 45:32things
• 45:33that make that very problematic.
• 45:36So
• 45:36as a profession, we are
• 45:38trying to develop some guidelines
• 45:41and to begin to think
• 45:42through how to approach this,
• 45:44which is
• 45:45complicated but interesting, but it's
• 45:48very hard to know how
• 45:49to get into in a
• 45:50reasonable way.
• 45:51I mean, you you hit
• 45:52the nail on the head
• 45:53in terms of the issues
• 45:55facing and why the FDA
• 45:56part of part of the
• 45:57reason why the FDA didn't
• 45:57move forward.
• 45:59And, you know, like, you
• 45:59know, even just the amount
• 46:00of therapy that's that's you
• 46:02know, we're we're doing these
• 46:03studies, but the therapy can
• 46:04be, like, gestalt therapy or
• 46:06it could be, you know,
• 46:08CBT.
• 46:08It's it's everything in between.
• 46:10And so, well, that's not
• 46:11that doesn't seem very uniform.
• 46:13If we believe that therapy
• 46:14has any effect on a
• 46:15patient,
• 46:15then that's ridiculous.
• 46:17And what was interest what's
• 46:18interesting too, which I think
• 46:19is being overlooked a bit
• 46:21about these studies and again,
• 46:22I'm not someone who's against,
• 46:23but I will say I
• 46:24if we're gonna go through
• 46:25the medical model,
• 46:27if this is going to
• 46:28go through that path, there
• 46:29are situated you know, we
• 46:30have to examine it from
• 46:31all these angles. Another part
• 46:33of this is that you
• 46:34have this exuberance.
• 46:36People who are involved in
• 46:37the research are very excited
• 46:39about it, and
• 46:41patients or participants in these
• 46:43clinical trials are being treated
• 46:45very well. I mean, they're
• 46:46like these these trials are
• 46:47beautifully run. They get a
• 46:48lot of attention.
• 46:50It's, you know, it's if
• 46:51you're in a kind of
• 46:52dealing with PTSD, for example,
• 46:54you're having a lot of
• 46:55support structures around you that
• 46:57don't really exist in mental
• 46:58health care at large.
• 47:00So how much of these
• 47:01positive outcomes are due to
• 47:03people being in a safe
• 47:04and supportive setting?
• 47:06Quite. That's a big question.
• 47:07And in fact, there is
• 47:07an amazing
• 47:09woman who her name is
• 47:10oh my gosh. I'm blanking
• 47:11on her name right now.
• 47:13Ugh. Ugh.
• 47:14I won't remember it. But
• 47:16she did a study. She
• 47:17was gonna do a study
• 47:17with psilocybin
• 47:18out in the Netherlands
• 47:20and COVID happened. And she
• 47:22ended up doing the study
• 47:23anyway
• 47:24via Zoom, I think, still,
• 47:26but offering the same therapeutic
• 47:28model, but no psilocybin.
• 47:30And the results were very
• 47:32similar.
• 47:33So it does raise some
• 47:34questions about, are we just
• 47:35doing therapy correctly? Are we
• 47:37serving patients
• 47:39in the way that we
• 47:39should be doing? And is
• 47:40that part of the amazing
• 47:42results that we're getting, which
• 47:43I think you're you've brought
• 47:44up and I think are
• 47:46valid questions?
• 47:49Right.
• 47:50I mean, part of the
• 47:51clinical trials, there was a
• 47:52huge part that was revealed
• 47:53that there was not just
• 47:55touching. There was, like, a
• 47:56sexual relationship that happened after
• 47:59the clinical trial
• 48:00concluded. They the person moved
• 48:02in with the guy.
• 48:03So, you know, the underground
• 48:04psychedelic world has some problems.
• 48:06It has some issues, and
• 48:08bringing it above ground is
• 48:10not seamless. Let's just say
• 48:12that. And so I am
• 48:15interested,
• 48:16very,
• 48:17gimlet eyed
• 48:19about the medical model for
• 48:20this.
• 48:21And I don't know. I
• 48:22don't know how it looks.
• 48:24Like you said, if we're
• 48:25taking LSC, it's eight hours.
• 48:26Okay. We're psilocybin. It's four.
• 48:27Oh, wait. DMT is fast.
• 48:29Sure. Maybe it's all DMT,
• 48:30but is everyone gonna be
• 48:31taking DMT? That's an extreme
• 48:33experience. So
• 48:34anyway, I'm babbling here, but
• 48:36I I'm with you. I
• 48:37think there are a lot
• 48:37of questions that remain unanswered.
• 48:41You know, I'm I'm here
• 48:43because I'm a fan of
• 48:44your
• 48:45earlier books.
• 48:47But
• 48:49why
• 48:50did you what was it
• 48:51about this person
• 48:53we profiled
• 48:55that you thought was important
• 48:58or intriguing? Or why why
• 49:00write a book about her?
• 49:01I mean, what was the
• 49:01hook?
• 49:02Yeah. For me, I knew
• 49:04I wanted to do something
• 49:04about psychedelics for some of
• 49:06these reasons that we are
• 49:07talking about now and how
• 49:08many people I knew were
• 49:10taking psychedelics either,
• 49:12kind of through
• 49:13more medicalized
• 49:15routes or they were disappearing
• 49:16off with a shaman in,
• 49:17like, a parking lot in
• 49:20New Jersey.
• 49:21So, you know, I wanted
• 49:22to know what what was
• 49:22going on here. I was
• 49:23curious myself. I'm I actually
• 49:26actually there's some of some
• 49:27of this happened postpartum after
• 49:28birth of my twins,
• 49:30and I had what would
• 49:32kind of be called the
• 49:32psychedelic experience without psychedelics where
• 49:34I had a kind of
• 49:35unity consciousness experience
• 49:38in the wake of their
• 49:39birth.
• 49:40And I was interested in
• 49:41that, and I wanted to
• 49:42explore that. And so I
• 49:44had written about psychedelics in
• 49:46my two previous books just
• 49:47a little bit. Well, I've
• 49:48wrote about ketamine and Brain
• 49:49on Fire.
• 49:51And I wrote about I
• 49:52think oh my gosh. I
• 49:53forgot that Phil Corlett is
• 49:55here. Oh, I should have
• 49:56emailed I should have emailed
• 49:57him. He's wonderful. Phil,
• 49:59I'm are we familiar with
• 50:01Phil Corlett?
• 50:02Anyone here? He does he's
• 50:03research at Yale, and he
• 50:04does he helped he helped
• 50:05me with all three of
• 50:06my books, and I should
• 50:07have told him about it.
• 50:07So anyway, but he told
• 50:08me about ketamine and the
• 50:09rubber hand illusion. And I
• 50:10actually came here to the
• 50:11lab and I watched him
• 50:13do the ketamine
• 50:15studies.
• 50:16Then for my second book,
• 50:17I wrote about,
• 50:18a man named Humphrey Osmond,
• 50:20who was a psychiatrist who
• 50:22coined the term psychedelic
• 50:24with Aldous Huxley.
• 50:26He would give LSD
• 50:28to his architects who would
• 50:30build his asylums
• 50:32because at that point,
• 50:33psychedelics were seen as a
• 50:34psychotomimetic,
• 50:35which meaning mimicking psychosis.
• 50:38So it was a way
• 50:38of understanding the psychotic mind,
• 50:40and that's initially why psychiatrists
• 50:42took it, to try to
• 50:43understand their patients.
• 50:45That really interested me and
• 50:47several people had actually reached
• 50:48out to me asking about
• 50:49that very overlap between psychosis
• 50:51because I have experience with
• 50:52psychosis
• 50:53and psychedelics.
• 50:55That was very intriguing.
• 50:57I started to just go
• 50:58down into the archives of
• 50:59the New York Public Library
• 51:00where Timothy Leary's archives are.
• 51:03And there became aware that
• 51:05there was an ancillary collection
• 51:07that no one ever goes
• 51:08to of twenty five boxes.
• 51:10He he has four hundred
• 51:12boxes.
• 51:12But twenty five little bankers
• 51:14boxes of Rosemary Woodruff, Leary,
• 51:15and I started going through
• 51:16her files.
• 51:17And that's kind of journalistic
• 51:19spidey sense of no one's
• 51:20ever written about her before.
• 51:22She doesn't have a Wikipedia
• 51:23page. She's an unknown.
• 51:25It was exciting. But what
• 51:26I saw in there was
• 51:27this kind of
• 51:28this pursuit, this idea of
• 51:29the seeker, which
• 51:31I relate to.
• 51:33I feel in my life,
• 51:35there's a little bit of
• 51:35that missing,
• 51:37or there's like a almost
• 51:38like a religious shape hole
• 51:39in my life because I
• 51:40was not raised with any
• 51:41religion.
• 51:43And I I could kind
• 51:44of relate to her seek
• 51:45her that seeking side of
• 51:47her.
• 51:47And so that really was
• 51:49exciting to me to look
• 51:51at this lens of psychedelics
• 51:53through this woman who was
• 51:54unknown,
• 51:55but then also as a
• 51:56way to understand this part
• 51:57of American history that I
• 51:59love so much and the
• 52:00music that come out and
• 52:01the art that's come out
• 52:02of it and the movies.
• 52:03And I could shift the
• 52:04lens by taking in this
• 52:05new person
• 52:07that, again, has never been
• 52:08written about, but her stories
• 52:09like hers have never been
• 52:10told.
• 52:11So doing that takes in
• 52:13new information about that time
• 52:14too. So it was kind
• 52:16of amalgamation of all those
• 52:17elements that came together
• 52:19when I became aware of
• 52:20her existence.
• 52:24So you
• 52:26actually,
• 52:27really
• 52:28set me up really well
• 52:29for my question. I'm Cecilia.
• 52:31I'm a third year medical
• 52:32student.
• 52:33I was going to ask
• 52:34in just here you talk
• 52:35about this. I've heard you
• 52:36use the word prophecies. I've
• 52:38heard you use the word
• 52:39evangelical.
• 52:40And you just talked about
• 52:41how you felt, you know,
• 52:42seeking for some sort of
• 52:43religion. I know there's often
• 52:45a lot of spiritual aspects
• 52:47attributed to psychedelic use.
• 52:49And I'm wondering how
• 52:51first of all, how that
• 52:52came up when you were
• 52:53writing the book and also
• 52:54how you approached that because
• 52:55it sounds like a lot
• 52:56of this was approached from
• 52:57a very, you know, trying
• 52:59to be even handed and
• 52:59clinical, but then there's also
• 53:01this aspect of faith and
• 53:02I'm wondering what that was
• 53:03like. Oh, what a great
• 53:04question.
• 53:05I,
• 53:06kind of threw myself into
• 53:07it a bit and and
• 53:08in the spiritual side because,
• 53:09yes, she did have a
• 53:11religion, but it was called
• 53:12the League for Spiritual Discovery
• 53:14LSD.
• 53:16So I don't know how
• 53:17legit it was,
• 53:19but you know she was
• 53:20definitely someone who was and
• 53:21I hear this again it's
• 53:22I think people who do
• 53:23have profound experiences on psychedelics
• 53:26they return again and again
• 53:27because it's not
• 53:29you don't get it fully
• 53:30like it's almost like you
• 53:31touch the hem of the
• 53:32garment of what you're looking
• 53:32for and you keep going
• 53:34back and it goes further
• 53:35and further away.
• 53:36And a lot of people
• 53:37like Ram Dass, if anyone
• 53:38knows who Ram Dass is,
• 53:39he started at Harvard with
• 53:41with Leary, who started with
• 53:43Richard Alpert, and was a
• 53:44professor at Harvard as well
• 53:46and was fired.
• 53:47And then he did a
• 53:49lot of psychedelics, probably more
• 53:50than Leary did. And then
• 53:52went to India, gave it
• 53:53up, and kind of had
• 53:54this whole rebirth in terms
• 53:56of his religious outlook. And
• 53:58psychedelics became less of a
• 53:59part of his life. Whereas
• 54:00Leary kind of stayed in
• 54:01that world, and he never
• 54:03kind of moved beyond it.
• 54:04And I noticed that a
• 54:05lot of people who take
• 54:06that
• 54:07kind of fate side of
• 54:08things seriously end up in
• 54:10a space of religion. And
• 54:11that happened again and again
• 54:12in the non famous people
• 54:14I interviewed. There was an
• 54:15amazing man
• 54:17named Odin Fong
• 54:18who,
• 54:19his parents were Benson and
• 54:21Malaya Fong, who were kind
• 54:23of were famous in the
• 54:251950s
• 54:26as Asian actors, very shortlist
• 54:27of Asian actors, and he
• 54:29they were extremely famous in
• 54:31Hollywood, and he was their
• 54:32son,
• 54:33and dropped out of Hollywood
• 54:34and that lifestyle to join
• 54:36something called the Brotherhood of
• 54:38Eternal Love, which was like
• 54:39a hippie mafia.
• 54:41And he was basically selling
• 54:42LSD.
• 54:43He had long hair and
• 54:44like played a flute, you
• 54:45know.
• 54:46And he was a real,
• 54:47for a variety of reasons,
• 54:49like had a strong death
• 54:50drive and really pushed himself
• 54:53the limits of psychedelic use.
• 54:55At one point, there was
• 54:56a big lollipop with thousands
• 54:58of hits of what's called
• 54:59orange sunshine, which is the
• 55:00strongest form of LSD that
• 55:01they had at the time,
• 55:02and he just took a
• 55:03big bite of it in
• 55:04the middle of Joshua Tree,
• 55:06passed out, got as close
• 55:07as you can to overdosing.
• 55:09You can't really overdose on
• 55:10LSD, but he got as
• 55:11close as you can,
• 55:12and Jesus came to him.
• 55:14And he's a pastor now.
• 55:16He never did LSD again.
• 55:18And I heard that story
• 55:19a lot. A lot of
• 55:20these people were looking for
• 55:21that and they found it
• 55:22in various ways. So in
• 55:24terms of myself, Jesus did
• 55:26not come to me. I
• 55:26didn't have that experience. But
• 55:28what I did do is
• 55:29I did
• 55:30take seriously like her tools
• 55:33of spirituality and divination which
• 55:35were the tarot cards,
• 55:37I Ching.
• 55:38She did a lot of
• 55:39yoga and breath work and
• 55:40I did all that. I
• 55:41did all that while I
• 55:42was working on this book
• 55:43and it was pretty amazing.
• 55:45Opening myself up to that.
• 55:46I'm a very rational person.
• 55:48I don't have a lot
• 55:49of that in my life
• 55:51and I probably wouldn't allow
• 55:52myself to have a lot
• 55:53of that in my life
• 55:54and
• 55:55I I like having it
• 55:56in my life a little
• 55:57bit now. I'm a little
• 55:57woo woo,
• 55:59without, like, you know, compromising
• 56:01my, you know, scruples in
• 56:02terms of my the way
• 56:03I research or, you know,
• 56:05my my,
• 56:07my bar for what I
• 56:09put in the book.
• 56:10I did try to do
• 56:11a little bit of embodiment
• 56:12work with this and I
• 56:13would even just saying that
• 56:14word in words, embodiment work
• 56:17would not have been part
• 56:18of the vocabulary of my
• 56:19two prior books. So it
• 56:20was an interesting,
• 56:23experience to say the least
• 56:24that that that she opened
• 56:25up in me that was
• 56:26specifically for this book and
• 56:27probably would not work for
• 56:28any others.
• 56:29Six o'clock. So we're going
• 56:30to I know we started
• 56:32a few minutes late, so
• 56:32we're going to have one
• 56:33more question. This gentleman here
• 56:35and then,
• 56:38thank you so much. Suzanne
• 56:39on the left hand, Randy.
• 56:41Hi, I'm Benny. I'm actually
• 56:43a sophomore undergraduate at Yale.
• 56:46And I was wondering,
• 56:48as someone who has a
• 56:49lot of knowledge and experience
• 56:51of the history of psychedelic
• 56:53use, and what's gone wrong,
• 56:54what's gone right,
• 56:56how do you envision
• 56:59psychedelics becoming more incorporated into
• 57:02modern society? Because,
• 57:04of course, there's the medical
• 57:05route that's already starting to
• 57:06take form. But then there
• 57:08are also a bunch of
• 57:09people who don't necessarily have
• 57:11mental illnesses or anything who
• 57:12reap tremendous benefits from psychedelics.
• 57:14But you also can't really
• 57:15just have LSD
• 57:17at CVS that anyone can
• 57:19buy.
• 57:20I mean, you're I I
• 57:21wish I had a this
• 57:22is, like, for my second
• 57:23book. People are like, so
• 57:24how do we fix the
• 57:25broken mental health care system?
• 57:26I'd be like, I don't
• 57:27know. So I I don't
• 57:28know. And it's really a
• 57:29hard and, like, I mean,
• 57:30it's a valid question. It's
• 57:31a question we should be
• 57:32asking, because I do agree.
• 57:33I think that it can
• 57:35be if you are like
• 57:36and again, this kind of
• 57:37woo woo language, but if,
• 57:38like, you have stable if
• 57:39you have your feet on
• 57:40the ground, you're stable,
• 57:41but you don't really know.
• 57:42You don't know how you're
• 57:43gonna respond to psychedelics. That's
• 57:45the problem. The set
• 57:47are things that you can't
• 57:48see. Right? So I'm always
• 57:49scared
• 57:51to say too much about
• 57:53that, because I do have
• 57:54a lot of community of
• 57:55people who have serious mental
• 57:56illness or had autoimmune disease
• 57:57of the brain who follow
• 57:58me.
• 58:00So I don't have a
• 58:01prescription
• 58:01for how this is going
• 58:02to happen, but I do
• 58:04completely understand what you're saying
• 58:06about, like, maybe
• 58:07this isn't maybe the route
• 58:09isn't medical.
• 58:10Maybe it's another route. I
• 58:12don't know. I mean, like,
• 58:13what would be
• 58:14the the kind of like
• 58:16the track would be marijuana,
• 58:17but that doesn't seem right.
• 58:20And there's a lot of
• 58:20problems with the marijuana track.
• 58:22So like, what is it?
• 58:23I don't know. It seems
• 58:24a little bit unprecedented
• 58:26and especially,
• 58:27you know, in the culture
• 58:28in which we live incorporating
• 58:30psychedelics in a way that's
• 58:31meaningful
• 58:32and safe
• 58:34is really a challenge.
• 58:35And,
• 58:37I don't have the answer
• 58:38for it.
• 58:39Sorry that I that's the
• 58:40lame answer, but I I
• 58:41I don't even wanna pretend
• 58:43like I do. It's a
• 58:43really it's a I think
• 58:44it's gonna be a challenge
• 58:46of maybe some people in
• 58:47this room who will be
• 58:48working with it. It'll be
• 58:49a challenge of lawmakers and
• 58:51the FDA, and
• 58:53it's gonna it's gonna be,
• 58:55there are probably gonna be
• 58:56a lot of mistakes made
• 58:56again from what I can
• 58:58tell in terms of the
• 58:59the world that I've seen
• 59:01of contemporary psychedelics. But if
• 59:02you read her book,
• 59:04you'll have a deeper
• 59:06understanding.
• 59:07So
• 59:08I know everyone here is
• 59:09super busy. That's why you're
• 59:11here in the first place.
• 59:12So thank you everyone for
• 59:14coming.
• 59:16Thank you everyone for coming.
• 59:18Thank you for coming in
• 59:19person. Thanks for anyone that's
• 59:21tuned in. You should have
• 59:22come.
• 59:24And I really appreciate that
• 59:26you came from Rhode Island
• 59:27to be here, and we'll,
• 59:28like, chitchat a little bit
• 59:29if anyone wants to meet
• 59:30Suzanne in person because she's
• 59:32wonderful.
• 59:33And we'll stay tuned for
• 59:34our next event.
• 59:36Thanks.